Well lets face it Neither major party has much credibility overall, but my God after 4 years of Osama....errrr Obama and his Socialist inclinations the GOP is a breath of fresh air...well less clouded anyways, I for one want that egg sucker out of the white...yes White house, and his ignorant money pissing away wife GONE...vacations in Hawaii for $4 Million while we struggle to keep gas in the car...$8 Million trips to Spain with friends while we cant find a job...shes a nit wit and hes a Socialist PIG...bordering on Communism.....ok Tell me how good life has been with Obama the last 4 unglorious years? We have over 160,000 men in Afghanistan, just shuffeled them over there from Iraq, Gas is $4 a gallon on average...on and on and on....whats good about the clown in office?...Oh yeah he was a doper in school and given his grades and appointments...guess thats good??? NOT
Ken M paraphrased from Merriam-Webster's definition[1], socialism is where the government or the whole population collectively owns the means of producing and distributing goods.
What exactly has Obama said or done that is socialist? I'm curious :)
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
This is a very good article that adds some credence to my comments..although for every article I can post you could actually do the same, so its a matter of which group you want to believe, I think that as rational humans we should look at his past, his family, where the big big bucks came from to send him to the best schools..surely not from a struggling Grandma who was a bank teller...moving up slowly without an education...so just how did she move up so high...bank vice president...no money no education...she was just a Great person?..Think about it..this article is easy to read full of real good information.
Ken M I don't pick and choose. I change my opinions all the time based on actual presented facts, and I'd love to have reason to change my mind on this and pretty much any available political issue. :)
Here are this article's facts:
- Mentored by Frank Marshall Davis (described as a father figure-style mentor, since Obama's father died in 1982,)
OK, but not everyone takes on their parents' or mentors' beliefs.
- Claim from John C. Drew that he heard Obama promote Marxism in college.
Eyewitness testimony is not verifiable, but even if it was, he's had 31 years to change his views.
- Obama was drawn to the DSA. Evidence presented is mention of going to socialist conventions at Cooper Union, in his book.
He did visit the conferences.
- Claim that the idea of single-payer healthcare is socialism.
This is patently false: I gave the definition of socialism above. Single-payer does not attempt to control means of production or distribution. Medicare is an example of a single payer system. Let's see how it stacks up to socialism: Means of production: hospitals, labs, insurance companies, drug manufacturers: all privately owned. Means of distribution: doctors, labs, pharmacies, benefit administration contractors: all privately owned. Now let's look at Britain's socialized medicine, the National Health Service: Means of production: hospitals, clinics, labs, insurance, etc: Government owned. Means of distribution: doctors, pharmacies, etc: Government owned.
So, no, not socialist, not even remotely. Additionally Obamacare is even farther from socialist than this.
- Community-organizing job in 1985 with the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. CCHD's mission says this: 'CCHD's mission "is to address the root causes of poverty in the U.S." In Catholic Social Teaching, the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of "social sin" rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. CCHD considers “institutional change” as that which addresses policies and operational structures of government, corporations, or private agencies that create poverty, keep people poor or impose injustice on poor people. '
CCHD's mission claims that the causes of poverty are covered under the Catholic concept of social sin, defined at [1]. They want to introduce "institutional change" among governments, corporations, and private agencies that create poverty. They want to change what these groups do and how they do it. The article mentions a few other out of context quotes that are similarly sensible, if a bit buzzword-heavy.
- Dr. Thomas Sowell's definition of a community organizer.
How is this relevant? I don't understand what they're trying to do here. Community organizing is about identifying groups of people who share common interests or needs and drawing them together so they get those needs.
- Identity politics meets Sowell's definition
OK, sure, but to say that there aren't serious problems that need addressing that identity politics is a good fit for is absurd.
- Mentors tied to Saul Alinksy
Saul wrote the book on how to change the world. Karl Rove (from the Bush administration) and quite a few others throughout our political system look to his book. Bogus to call this a socialism issue. [2]
Ken M- "I think that as rational humans we should look at his past, his family, where the big big bucks came from to send him to the best schools..surely not from a struggling" College costs a lot more today than it did in the 80s, but even still, he got student loans and scholarships just like everyone else. Here's a snopes article fact-checking an email forward that's been going around about this: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/money.asp
- Grandma who was a bank teller...moving up slowly without an education...so just how did she move up so high...bank vice president...no money no education...she was just a Great person?
She took classes at UWash and UC Berkeley but never graduated. She started in Escrow, not as a teller, and was promoted to manager within 2 years. It took her another 8 years to make it to VP. Keep in mind also that BoH is nothing like the size of Bank of America or Citigroup. Is 10 years too short to become vice president of a medium-sized business? Was it too short in 1970? I really don't think so in either case.
There is one prevalent issue and that is that no one can be president of the USA without being born in the USA, I am not convinced that Obama was born here...yes he presented a Phot copy of a birth certificate, but it was out of sequence and all efforts to get to the actual vault and get the actual documents have been thwarted by courts. Doesent this kind of thing make you feel like he cheated his way to the presidency?..Im not sure...no one can be without access to the vault...He has the power to keep us from those documents obviously...if he was born here why fight the efforts that would clear it all up?? Just a thought....
I also make changes when I feel its the right thing...I dont trust this man...or his political background or those who put him in office to start with...I am terrified of him...everyone should be terrified...
I think we should remember that womwn in general did not make VP of banks in the 70s often...if at all especially without the proper bonifides. But hey what do I know..
I think we all need to decide what is best for our country...How the hell did a first term senator with little experience become president of this country?...I like or prefer experienced people determining our countrys decisions.
Im done....I am not trying to convert any one...but I sure hope enough people decide that he is done...we will know in a short time indeed.....and PS Romney was not my choice...but he is the GOP candidate...so I hope he wins.
Ken M It doesn't make me think anything of the sort, the assertion is not backed by any kind of evidence.
I could assert that there is a teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between Mercury and Venus, and refuse to believe otherwise until presented with evidence. It's almost certainly not there, but we don't have equipment to detect it, and it would be a waste of time and effort to even try, but there is no evidence to disprove that assertion.
- "I think we should remember that womwn in general did not make VP of banks in the 70s often...if at all especially without the proper bonifides." 60s was a decade of change, including a revolution in feminism. Hawaii is a pretty blue state and has generally been rather progressive for a long time. She proved she could run the Escrow department for 8 years, is that not proper bona fides to you?
- "I think we all need to decide what is best for our country...How the hell did a first term senator with little experience become president of this country?...I like or prefer experienced people determining our countrys decisions. "
I agree that we all should decide and vote. I can agree on the experience issue somewhat, however I don't think Romney has any room to claim experience when he can't even detail his actual plans 3 weeks from the election.
I'm not trying to convert anyone either but I do hope that I've cleared up some things for people. Assertions are not facts, neither are deductions or conclusions.
ted kelly the artifacts thing is false, see snopes and the 9th circuit trial. typeface thing is also false (didn't listen to the rest of the second video, running out of time tonight :/)
I never considered myself very political...so I lack the skills and smart teams to determine who is right and who is wrong...I am going with the people that do have the skills to determine the fraud of this president...he is a very good speaker and seems to be sincere...but dont they all?..LOL
My bed time...so Im going to put politics away for the night...
It has been a pleasure to have the discussion with you, you seem to be well informed, and a thinker...
"Socialist" is the conservative code word for "nigger", Michael Cohen - you've probably seen the Tea Party's "Put The White Back In The White House" t-shirts.
Omg...these folks are insane.
ReplyDeleteHe was awarded extra points for rudeness.
ReplyDeleteWell lets face it Neither major party has much credibility overall, but my God after 4 years of Osama....errrr Obama and his Socialist inclinations the GOP is a breath of fresh air...well less clouded anyways, I for one want that egg sucker out of the white...yes White house, and his ignorant money pissing away wife GONE...vacations in Hawaii for $4 Million while we struggle to keep gas in the car...$8 Million trips to Spain with friends while we cant find a job...shes a nit wit and hes a Socialist PIG...bordering on Communism.....ok Tell me how good life has been with Obama the last 4 unglorious years? We have over 160,000 men in Afghanistan, just shuffeled them over there from Iraq, Gas is $4 a gallon on average...on and on and on....whats good about the clown in office?...Oh yeah he was a doper in school and given his grades and appointments...guess thats good??? NOT
ReplyDeleteKen M - I want some of what you're vaping, because it must be some really good shit.
ReplyDeleteLOL Ted I hear ya....I was just ranting..Maybe I was Vaping some good shit...LOL
ReplyDeleteKen M how is Obama a socialist, and how is anything he's ever done socialist?
ReplyDeleteKen M also, Bush spent 32% of his presidency on vacation, over 1,000 days.
ReplyDeleteIm not an expert on Socialism..Michael, but I listen to whats out there and the drums they be a talkin...lol...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/allen-west-obama-forward_n_1871001.html
lol indeed
ReplyDeleteKen M paraphrased from Merriam-Webster's definition[1], socialism is where the government or the whole population collectively owns the means of producing and distributing goods.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly has Obama said or done that is socialist? I'm curious :)
[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism and reproduced in part below:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
This is a very good article that adds some credence to my comments..although for every article I can post you could actually do the same, so its a matter of which group you want to believe, I think that as rational humans we should look at his past, his family, where the big big bucks came from to send him to the best schools..surely not from a struggling Grandma who was a bank teller...moving up slowly without an education...so just how did she move up so high...bank vice president...no money no education...she was just a Great person?..Think about it..this article is easy to read full of real good information.
ReplyDeletehttp://frontpagemag.com/2012/john-perazzo/barack-obama-the-socialist/
Ken M I don't pick and choose. I change my opinions all the time based on actual presented facts, and I'd love to have reason to change my mind on this and pretty much any available political issue. :)
ReplyDeleteHere are this article's facts:
- Mentored by Frank Marshall Davis (described as a father figure-style mentor, since Obama's father died in 1982,)
OK, but not everyone takes on their parents' or mentors' beliefs.
- Claim from John C. Drew that he heard Obama promote Marxism in college.
Eyewitness testimony is not verifiable, but even if it was, he's had 31 years to change his views.
- Obama was drawn to the DSA. Evidence presented is mention of going to socialist conventions at Cooper Union, in his book.
He did visit the conferences.
- Claim that the idea of single-payer healthcare is socialism.
This is patently false: I gave the definition of socialism above. Single-payer does not attempt to control means of production or distribution.
Medicare is an example of a single payer system. Let's see how it stacks up to socialism:
Means of production: hospitals, labs, insurance companies, drug manufacturers: all privately owned.
Means of distribution: doctors, labs, pharmacies, benefit administration contractors: all privately owned.
Now let's look at Britain's socialized medicine, the National Health Service:
Means of production: hospitals, clinics, labs, insurance, etc: Government owned.
Means of distribution: doctors, pharmacies, etc: Government owned.
So, no, not socialist, not even remotely. Additionally Obamacare is even farther from socialist than this.
- Community-organizing job in 1985 with the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. CCHD's mission says this: 'CCHD's mission "is to address the root causes of poverty in the U.S." In Catholic Social Teaching, the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of "social sin" rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. CCHD considers “institutional change” as that which addresses policies and operational structures of government, corporations, or private agencies that create poverty, keep people poor or impose injustice on poor people. '
CCHD's mission claims that the causes of poverty are covered under the Catholic concept of social sin, defined at [1]. They want to introduce "institutional change" among governments, corporations, and private agencies that create poverty. They want to change what these groups do and how they do it. The article mentions a few other out of context quotes that are similarly sensible, if a bit buzzword-heavy.
- Dr. Thomas Sowell's definition of a community organizer.
How is this relevant? I don't understand what they're trying to do here. Community organizing is about identifying groups of people who share common interests or needs and drawing them together so they get those needs.
- Identity politics meets Sowell's definition
OK, sure, but to say that there aren't serious problems that need addressing that identity politics is a good fit for is absurd.
- Mentors tied to Saul Alinksy
Saul wrote the book on how to change the world. Karl Rove (from the Bush administration) and quite a few others throughout our political system look to his book. Bogus to call this a socialism issue. [2]
- Obama taught Alinsky method
See [2] again.
Long article, holy crap.
Ken M- "I think that as rational humans we should look at his past, his family, where the big big bucks came from to send him to the best schools..surely not from a struggling"
ReplyDeleteCollege costs a lot more today than it did in the 80s, but even still, he got student loans and scholarships just like everyone else. Here's a snopes article fact-checking an email forward that's been going around about this: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/money.asp
- Grandma who was a bank teller...moving up slowly without an education...so just how did she move up so high...bank vice president...no money no education...she was just a Great person?
She took classes at UWash and UC Berkeley but never graduated. She started in Escrow, not as a teller, and was promoted to manager within 2 years. It took her another 8 years to make it to VP. Keep in mind also that BoH is nothing like the size of Bank of America or Citigroup. Is 10 years too short to become vice president of a medium-sized business? Was it too short in 1970? I really don't think so in either case.
http://www.legacy.com/NS/Obituary.aspx?pid=119723905 (AP text)
http://womensissues.about.com/od/influentialwomen/p/MadelynDunham.htm
There is one prevalent issue and that is that no one can be president of the USA without being born in the USA, I am not convinced that Obama was born here...yes he presented a Phot copy of a birth certificate, but it was out of sequence and all efforts to get to the actual vault and get the actual documents have been thwarted by courts. Doesent this kind of thing make you feel like he cheated his way to the presidency?..Im not sure...no one can be without access to the vault...He has the power to keep us from those documents obviously...if he was born here why fight the efforts that would clear it all up?? Just a thought....
ReplyDeleteI also make changes when I feel its the right thing...I dont trust this man...or his political background or those who put him in office to start with...I am terrified of him...everyone should be terrified...
I think we should remember that womwn in general did not make VP of banks in the 70s often...if at all especially without the proper bonifides. But hey what do I know..
ReplyDeleteI think we all need to decide what is best for our country...How the hell did a first term senator with little experience become president of this country?...I like or prefer experienced people determining our countrys decisions.
Im done....I am not trying to convert any one...but I sure hope enough people decide that he is done...we will know in a short time indeed.....and PS Romney was not my choice...but he is the GOP candidate...so I hope he wins.
Ken M It doesn't make me think anything of the sort, the assertion is not backed by any kind of evidence.
ReplyDeleteI could assert that there is a teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between Mercury and Venus, and refuse to believe otherwise until presented with evidence. It's almost certainly not there, but we don't have equipment to detect it, and it would be a waste of time and effort to even try, but there is no evidence to disprove that assertion.
Here's Snopes on the birth certificate: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/birthcertificate.asp
And all the way up to the 9th circuit, hawaii officials repeatedly verified the long form certificate in court.
http://youtu.be/3g30VCl_cgk
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/99eYfk87qGI
Just 2 of many...many more
Ken M
ReplyDelete- "I think we should remember that womwn in general did not make VP of banks in the 70s often...if at all especially without the proper bonifides."
60s was a decade of change, including a revolution in feminism. Hawaii is a pretty blue state and has generally been rather progressive for a long time. She proved she could run the Escrow department for 8 years, is that not proper bona fides to you?
- "I think we all need to decide what is best for our country...How the hell did a first term senator with little experience become president of this country?...I like or prefer experienced people determining our countrys decisions. "
I agree that we all should decide and vote. I can agree on the experience issue somewhat, however I don't think Romney has any room to claim experience when he can't even detail his actual plans 3 weeks from the election.
I'm not trying to convert anyone either but I do hope that I've cleared up some things for people. Assertions are not facts, neither are deductions or conclusions.
ted kelly the artifacts thing is false, see snopes and the 9th circuit trial. typeface thing is also false (didn't listen to the rest of the second video, running out of time tonight :/)
ReplyDeleteI never considered myself very political...so I lack the skills and smart teams to determine who is right and who is wrong...I am going with the people that do have the skills to determine the fraud of this president...he is a very good speaker and seems to be sincere...but dont they all?..LOL
ReplyDeleteMy bed time...so Im going to put politics away for the night...
It has been a pleasure to have the discussion with you, you seem to be well informed, and a thinker...
Ken M the best tool you can give yourself for evaluating what is true and what is false is to read up on how to spot conspiracy theories.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.michaelshermer.com/2010/12/the-conspiracy-theory-detector/
(Michael Shermer is a columnist for Scientific American)
"Socialist" is the conservative code word for "nigger", Michael Cohen - you've probably seen the Tea Party's "Put The White Back In The White House" t-shirts.
ReplyDeleteEric Nicolas silly assertion. Far as I'm concerned what matters is facts. Facts promote dialogue and dialogue is how we make progress.
ReplyDeleteFacts? I thought we were talking about politics. There were very few facts in the debate.
ReplyDelete